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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
Why would it make sense to have $BNB as anything else but a token?

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
It's very unlikely to be used for anything other than Bitcoin
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
You asked about money. Unregulated security offerings don't interest me.
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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
May not be of interest but that use case isn’t going away imo whether it’s labeled a security or otherwise

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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
I also don’t think it’s as exciting or important as BTC’s use case

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Doing altcoins or IEOs or whatever have terrible incentive structures
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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
What are some of your biggest contentions with some current known incentive structures?

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
I stay away because investors have terrible protections

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
The token peddlers don't owe you anything

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
They specifically state you get know rights

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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
It’s true, that is a risk that has to be calculated from the investors side

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Too risky for my taste

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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
I believe in markets however and think markets correct. I do see in the future these offerings being much more investor friendly through market correction

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Max Hirshik
I would be disappointed if it was through massive regulation

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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
We are already seeing correction in the IEO market, that will continue
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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
Anything other than BTC in your portfolio @David? What are you excited about?
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
The thing that bothers me is that they hide behind the veneer or decentralization, when it's clearly centralized
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
That tells me these projects are just trying to get free money
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
The track record is so bad in this space in terms of delivery, too
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
The only thing people seem to look at is price
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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
@jimmy I totally agree from that standpoint. Anything saying it’s decentralized should be held up to very high scrutiny and again from my point there really needs to be a large network using it to even make it possible. Which eliminates almost everything other than BTC.
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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
“Track record of delivery is bad” in this space is far too kind

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Max Hirshik
I’d say “abysmal”

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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
It’s not a good thing for a team making a product to have way too much runway

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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
And we see that to a huge degree in this space
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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
> other than BTC ETH of course and a bunch of alts from way back, too.

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David Orban
> excited about Ecosystems and experimentation. I think it's undeniable that Ethereum create a very sizeable developer ecosystem.
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David Orban
And the creativity, passion, skill and enthusiasm that goes into it is only rivaled by that of what goes into AI.

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David Orban
It's actually funny to see how very talented people are torn as they decide where they should apply their skills.

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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
Social media blew open silos of communication between corporations and customers. I expect that we will see new business models emerging that will similarly open up the currently rigid roles between suppliers, distribution channels, funding in fantastic ways.

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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
The value chain a la Porter will become a much more dynamic and resilient Network.

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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
I see decentralization in a broader context, where Blockchain is just one of many simultaneous changes. See the Network Society Manifesto on http://netsoc.org/manifesto
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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
Ethereum has a large and talented developer community 100%

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Large, yes. Talented, no

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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
Haha Talented definitely debatable

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Unless you're talking about talent in marketing.
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
They have few protocol devs and the technical choices they've made are frightening from a security perspective.

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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
I’m not a developer so cannot say “talented” but can say large and active with certainty :)

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
These people get conflated with script kiddies copying and pasting erc20 templates
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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
I don’t have to be a developer to know that part is true to some degree ^^

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Neither are very good, but large != good

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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
Jimmy what are the parameters of your bet with Lubin?
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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
Someone should make a market for it on Augur
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
10k DAUs, 100k MAUs for any 6 months in a 12 month period for 5 different apps on ETH by May 31 2023

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
~70 BTC if I win, ~810 ETH if he wins
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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
That’s a fun bet

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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
I like your side from a betting perspective. David, do you think ETH DApps will get that much traction?

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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
Yup
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Would you like to justify your optimism?

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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
It's purely wishful thinking. Easy for me: I didn't make the bet!

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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
Jokes aside:
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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
Obviously the scaling issues to overcome are non trivial
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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
I'm skeptical about POS succeeding ultimately
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
I'll note that Poloniex delisted some PoS coins
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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
But I remember when we were discussing if digital television should have rectangular it square pixels. And streaming UHD in millions of homes via Netflix would have been unimaginable

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
There's regulatory risk there. But also a credibility issue. They've been talking PoS switch for years and never met their deadlines
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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
We may need a deeper overhaul of TCP/IP and DNS to fully realize what we imagine an ideal decentralized architecture should be.

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
It's one thing to be surprised by innovation in an industry that's delivered a lot of value (internet). It's another to assert that surprise hits will happen in an industry that's got such a poor track record of delivery

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
I see too many people smoking hopium. Happy to short this turd all the way down.
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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
When IP4 hoarding forced NAT, it was the death knell of P2P, even if we cheered how smart Skype's NAT traversal was

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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
Obviously just because I've wants innovation to be true it doesn't automatically become true.

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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
Do you see any use for Bitcoin beyond payments?

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Store of value is the main use case right now
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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
In five years?
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Whether it becomes a big method of payment is not necessary for it's success as store of value
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
I'm confused by people that think that's too limited a use case

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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
Jimmy on this topic there’s something that has always bugged me a bit since 2017.

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
We have almost no good stores of value

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
That's a huge win for civilization

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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
> too limited Not for sure! A TAM of a few trillion dollars is nice enough

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
More than that

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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
Has the most ardent of the BTC community always maintained that payments not important

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Real estate is used as a proxy as are stocks

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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
Or just after an abrasive character forked BTC and said BTC isn’t good for payments

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Even art and collectibles are used

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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
It seems like I didn’t here the payments aren’t important only SOV is important after Roger started his antics

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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
Hear*

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Store of value is naturally where money goes when not inflating

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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
> Real estate is used as a proxy So do you expect that BTC will deflate real estate values?

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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
So is this take reactionary to BCH? Or has it been long maintained?

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Eventually, yes
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Max, why do people buy BTC? To buy something or to store value?

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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
I’m not disagreeing

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Other than dark web shoppers, I don't know anyone that buys BTC to buy somehting

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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
I’m just saying was this perspective popular within the BTC community before 2017

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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
Or is it reactionary.

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
It was popular in the same way that any BTC news is popular in the community

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
It was seen as merchants wanting to store value
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Not as "I can buy crap from overstock"
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Turns out merchants don't want to store value

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
In BTC

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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
I always maintained that Bitcoin's deflationary power contributes to sustainable practices and better decision making https://www.facebook.com/groups/internetofmoney/permalink/607711329284680?sfns=mo

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Payments use case is something Reddit posters overvalued
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
And naturally if they spent, they lost Bitcoin and started regretting more
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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
Reddit posters or all of the BTC community before 2017?

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
I still hate that I spent BTC on beef jerky in 2013

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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
Lol ^

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Anyway, it may have been something some people wanted more than store of value. But if so, they're gone now
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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
My main point is, I think it’s a pretty nuanced topic and it irks me to see BTC’ers pretend like it wasn’t at least for a time considered a practical application
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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
I don’t want the BTC to make any reactionary decisions in response to a Roger type character. That’s my concern. :)
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Max Hirshik
BTC community *
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
It's the other way around in my view
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
His emphasis on payments caused the rift

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
The emphasis on method of payment came from people that left
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
And BTC doesn't change very often and when it does, it's slow
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
That's a feature, not a bug

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
BTC can't be reactionary in any reasonable way
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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
That’s a good way to put it. I guess from your view the reactionary move would have been to increase blocksize.

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Geez, we increased the block size with Segwit
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
How many times do we have to repeat that?
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
The argument was always about the safety of a contentious hard fork
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
And who got to say what would go in
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
It was always about control
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
And giving it to businesses would have been terrible
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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
Makes sense to me
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
That's what we're running away from, the corporation-government partnership to manipulate us like sheep
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May 17

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Avatar for Question from Heather
Question from Heather
What do you think this news is? I'd love to see John texting with you guys! https://twitter.com/officialmcafee/status/1129068785762283521
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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
Here's a chat I had with John a few months ago https://youtu.be/ZLS1Npafngw
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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
He was bragging on the Internet that he hasn’t filed a tax return in 8 years so could be in some trouble there, hope it’s not health related! Would love for John to be here, what a character.
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
I'm not sure how John McAfee's troubles relate to Bitcoin. Honesly, I'd rather not be here if we're going to be talking about celebrity gossip.
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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
Agree... We will have to tell Heather to reduct herself to Bitcoin only.
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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
What would you like to chat about Bitcoin today? 🙃

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
If you have questions about Bitcoin or ideas around it, that's worth discussing. If you want an explanation about events that have happened, I'll attempt to do so, though it's mostly going to be speculation. Talking about people, I have no patience for.
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Re: what to discuss, I'd really like a postmortem of 2x

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Especially Vinny's take

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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
What's your view of it?

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Corporate takeover attempt of a decentralized system that failed

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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
It'd be great if Vinny participated too, but in his absence...

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Unprecedented in many ways

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Can we invite people?

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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
You mean the takeover failed, not the decentralized system right?
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Yes
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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
Vinny Lingham is in this chat technically. He just never spoke up.

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
The chat needs more people

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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
Do you think that corporations will take notice and consider the learnings?

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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
Or it will just serve to refund their efforts?

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
They're still bitter from what I can tell

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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
*redouble

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Some have come around, like Xapo
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Others seem to have focused on other coins

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
I should go to Satoshi Round table next year just to have that discussion
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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
Because it's still a major issue

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Avatar for Jimmy Song
Jimmy Song
And we haven't really resolved things emotionally. Financially, we know Bitcoin won, but there are a lot of bad feelings all around
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Avatar for Max Hirshik
Max Hirshik
Vinny is hopping in a few days and they are adding some more folks as well I believe
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May 19

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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
I'll be pretty tied up with the Malta AI & Blockchain Summit in the next few days but will try to chime in.

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Avatar for David Orban
David Orban
Here's an interview that came out today in The Times of Malta.

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David Orban
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